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Author Thoughts/Feedback on Eragora
Takayuchi
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Posts: 25
Joined: 21.03.11
Posted on Sep 03 2011 01:33
I have been meaning to do this awhile, though I hate being that negative nancy, it seems to be my role 'round these parts. I wanted to put together a substantial and productive criticism of Eragora's implementation, but I think that WinterRose's description of Sphynx Gate on the wiki does it for me.

The twin Sphynx will debuff (see Ablution) players passing though. The players will be automatically transported to Rhuien Forest starting room which is not safe and may contain wandering aggressive mobs.
Since players can only pass one at a time and the process takes a while, send tanks first, and remember to wear appropriate gear as soon as you emerge as you will be naked.
If you dislike the idea of battling an aggressive mob while naked and spell-less, recall reset prior to entering the Sphynx room. As soon as you are abluted hit (spam if needed!) recall, and you will probably recall before the mob has had a chance to attack you.
Rhuien Forest does not do Auto-CR, so avoiding death in this manner is preferable.


This procedure occurs after the ferry ride, itself a time sink. As a solo superhero or caster, this isn't too bad (and unsurprisingly, these are the characters most often in Eragora). To describe this as arduous to the average group, however, is to put it mildly. The time required to merely enter Eragora with an average group is substantial; to spell that group even moreso. Adding to this issue is the difficulty of departure: while it would be ideal for an Eragora group to commit to 3-4 runs and avoid the substantial timesink that is leaving and re-entering, if any groupie needs to depart or be replaced (or even switch alts), this timesink is mandatory, as that groupie may be incapable of leaving of their own accord, either through lack of knowledge or weakness of character. The typical 30 minute commitment of a hero run is nowhere to be seen, and worse still, while soloers can blissfully logoff in Eragora and come back to it as they wish (unlike Lord), groups must ferry back and forth ad nauseam.

Unfortunately, many area writers were not aware how difficult it was going to be for typical hero groups to enter and leave this zone, and as a result, many areas are exceptionally difficult and basically unused. In fact, the contest specifically advised areas to be aggressive and dangerous in design, so it is a cruel irony that those areas which ignored that directive and provided easy soloing are the ones that see heavy traffic.

Basically, regardless of intent, we built a solo zone. I'm not sure if that's good or bad. It doesn't fit my playstyle, though it does some others. Thoughts, comments, concerns?
Author RE: Thoughts/Feedback on Eragora
Valth
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Posts: 9
Joined: 08.08.10
Posted on Sep 03 2011 05:04
Random design flaws I see with Eragora:

1) Sphynx gate. The idea and text are interesting, the coding is not. Being forced to lose all your spells and removal of gear into a NON-SAFE room is ridiculous. The first room should be completely safe to prevent people from being turned off from Eragora as a result of dying immediately if multiple mobs are in the first room.

2) Auto-CR in a multitude of areas. This feature, to me, goes against everything about being a "dangerous and aggressive area." Who cares if you die if you have no risk? People might argue that this is necessary because nobody goes to Eragora...so we should cater to you because you can't handle recovering your corpse naked? If I die deep in Trans forest, Morte, or any other swarmy hero area that eulogy is not enabled in, I know that I risk losing gear if I'm on during a time where counts are low. Should force eulogy if nothing else.

3) Policy on spellbots. People who run there often already bring their lord cleric bots to spell groups. This is a pointless policy which only favors people who already have kra spellbots.

4) Teleport being disabled to Eragora. Splitting our already small playerbase is silly. If we could teleport to Eragora easily I would be much more inclined to explore/run Eragora. However, since I have to essentially dedicate multiple alts to Eragora to run efficiently, I don't bother.

5) 10% bonus exp and 50% less chance of statloss on death should be removed, unless this is meant to establish parity for not having spellbots. And it's a pretty lame way to establish parity if that is the case.

I guess I should ask, what was the design goal? There's some new t1 gear and some interesting items, but a large majority is very irritating to reach and is about equal to old t1 + 1 "normal enchant", meaning that in most scenarios it is not worth getting them because it'd be easier to camp the main Midgaard items and go for a dbrill. Is it supposed to provide a new, refreshing aspect of hero? So far a huge amount of the difficulty I've seen lies in swarmy rooms with lots of mobs that hurt, which means you take a bunch of casters and surge area spells. Doesn't sound like anything new to me.
Edited by Valth on Sep 03 2011 05:46
Author RE: Thoughts/Feedback on Eragora
WinterRose
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Location: Explorer's Respite, Eragora
Joined: 14.02.11
Posted on Sep 03 2011 09:25
I would like to address some of thse concerns, from my own, superhero caster point of view, and try to explain what I do like about Eragora. Naturally, you all know I'm biased, but bare with me please.

I will start with the fact that on Midgaardia, noone except an odd bladedancer will group either a mage or a cleric in their party, and questions like "I'd group you but can you surge 2 whole run? Didn't think so." are common, diversity bonus be damned.

Valth wrote:
Random design flaws I see with Eragora:

1) Sphynx gate. The idea and text are interesting, the coding is not. Being forced to lose all your spells and removal of gear into a NON-SAFE room is ridiculous. The first room should be completely safe to prevent people from being turned off from Eragora as a result of dying immediately if multiple mobs are in the first room.


A lvl 200 mage in ac gear, spellless can kill the Eragora guardian that poses a threat here, in 2 surge 3 disints. Damage received will be no more than 500hp. A bzk can probably kill him in the same amount of time as well. While troublesome for small characters, this problem is not a game-ender.


2) Auto-CR in a multitude of areas. This feature, to me, goes against everything about being a "dangerous and aggressive area." Who cares if you die if you have no risk? People might argue that this is necessary because nobody goes to Eragora...so we should cater to you because you can't handle recovering your corpse naked? If I die deep in Trans forest, Morte, or any other swarmy hero area that eulogy is not enabled in, I know that I risk losing gear if I'm on during a time where counts are low. Should force eulogy if nothing else.


On Midgaardia, dying to a troublesome area means you will beckon for CR, get a group of 5 people immediately, spell on Kra bots and get that corpse. On Eragora, you cannot do that due to timesink problems mentioned earlier, and a stray lowhero dying to a wrong portal has much higher chance of losing his gear.

Not all areas do Auto-CR, ony half of them, and some of the more difficult ones don't bother with this. I have always hinted to people unsure of their capabilities to get a set of fodder gear and run in that, just to be sure. With self-spelling and lack of bots, their Ac will be impacted anyway.


3) Policy on spellbots. People who run there often already bring their lord cleric bots to spell groups. This is a pointless policy which only favors people who already have kra spellbots.


This is indeed a tricky question. If Eragora was intended for a true botless experience, should lords even be allowed on it? People have traded spells in this manner since .. well, ever, and I see nothing wrong in having a hero prs or cleric there to help spelling those players who cannot selfspell.


4) Teleport being disabled to Eragora. Splitting our already small playerbase is silly. If we could teleport to Eragora easily I would be much more inclined to explore/run Eragora. However, since I have to essentially dedicate multiple alts to Eragora to run efficiently, I don't bother.


Then don't bother, noone forces you! There already exists a meager playerbase that will come when beckoned to do xp or gear runs (yes, eragora is quite Lordlike in some regards), and I can only imagine this base getting stronger as more players learn how to run it.

As for dedicating an alt to running Eragora, I can ask the reverse - why would you ever want to dedicate an alt to running Midgaardia?


5) 10% bonus exp and 50% less chance of statloss on death should be removed, unless this is meant to establish parity for not having spellbots. And it's a pretty lame way to establish parity if that is the case.


I would say this bonuses are intended to encourage general Eragora running and to alleviate fear of repetitious deaths that the explorers can sometimes incur, since they die far more often than what is common.


I guess I should ask, what was the design goal? There's some new t1 gear and some interesting items, but a large majority is very irritating to reach and is about equal to old t1 + 1 "normal enchant", meaning that in most scenarios it is not worth getting them because it'd be easier to camp the main Midgaard items and go for a dbrill. Is it supposed to provide a new, refreshing aspect of hero? So far a huge amount of the difficulty I've seen lies in swarmy rooms with lots of mobs that hurt, which means you take a bunch of casters and surge area spells. Doesn't sound like anything new to me.


Ahh, and here we come to the crux of your issues. I had a similar problem with manifest gear not being actually better in any way than regular stuff. The Eragora is here for the same reason, to provide an alternative. It is not mandatory to anyone! You can get the same stuff back at Midgaardia, so unless you like exploring and getting new and fresh gear, don't go shopping here, farm the old stuff.

As for the runs, I'm afraid you have seen only some of the runs. Areas like Halfling Tunnels, Mountain Tunnels, Healing springs, Halfling Paradise, Eragora Walkways, Rhuien forest, Akrikto's Farm are NOT intended for groups of area spellcasters. They are all single/two-mob-at-a-time-affairs. You have probably seen the Outpost or Sun God Altar which were indeed imagined for those groups tagging area casters along. Feel free to take a brute group and do any other area, the xp there is untouched, mobs are appropriately arranged, and you might have fun.


Unfortunately, many area writers were not aware how difficult it was going to be for typical hero groups to enter and leave this zone, and as a result, many areas are exceptionally difficult and basically unused. In fact, the contest specifically advised areas to be aggressive and dangerous in design, so it is a cruel irony that those areas which ignored that directive and provided easy soloing are the ones that see heavy traffic.


Wish this were truth. One of the most beautiful areas I have even encountered is the Healing Springs, which was intended for solo exploration. I don't really think more than 5 people have ever been to it.

As for the soloers, you seem annoyed that mages and arcs/fus are the only ones who can efficiently solo these areas and explore. As i it were ever different of Midgaardia. Other classes cannot solo anyway! Naturally a player wil bring a solo superhero monster to learn the layout and then run with other alts as appropriate.

Now, finally, to say a few more things. Yes, I would run it, and have ran it even when there was no xp bonus and statloss penalty. I have spent countless millions training my stats back up (and still do from time to time). I have some issues here that irk me like some areas not being soloable, but it's my personal pet peeve and those areas were simply not imagined to be a solo affair. And this is good design.

Yes, tagging a caster or two and a cleric is mandatory when running the Outpost or Quarries, but why is this a Bad Thing? Finally the area design of some areas on Eragora is the key element to forming groups and not player prejudice towards casters! I'm sorry but I am one player who is glad of this change. If you dislike this, go run any of the brute areas I listed earlier.

I think that's enough preaching for now, I hope I defended these points well.

Cheers!
Author RE: Thoughts/Feedback on Eragora
Kariya
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Posts: 49
Joined: 28.06.06
Posted on Sep 03 2011 10:55
The design behind Eragora as *I* understand it, is to create a new continent that has (some) different rules and thus require different approaches than Midgaardia.
It is definitely still a work in progress and as time advances things might get tweaked.

If you have concrete examples of things that need to be changed now, please contact Zahri. She is the one who will decide on these. I don't mean "make it teleportable" because that won't happen afaik. It's a different continent with different, slightly tweaked magic. But perhaps the Sphynx thing is negotiable?

If you want changes (or list things you don't like) please do add suggestions on how to improve. We do listen, we do try to make it a better place. But we need your constructive input and advice to make it work.
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Author RE: Thoughts/Feedback on Eragora
Takayuchi
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Posts: 25
Joined: 21.03.11
Posted on Sep 04 2011 01:54
I'm happy to make a short list of things I personally would do to improve my experience of Eragora. But as Valth and WinterRose both noted, what each of us wants is not necessarily part of the design goal of the area (which itself is ambiguous other than "something different". Even between WinterRose and myself, our understandings are very different!). Is it meant to be group-friendly or not? How much of a hassle/timesink is appropriate, if any? Do we want to encourage exploration or is there meant to be a certain cautiousness in heroes' approach to the continent?

Brief suggestions:

-Allow groups to enter as one. The Sphynx procedure breaks flow and takes longer the more groupies you have. It basically puts a 10 minute loading screen on your hero run, which is only 30 minutes as is.

-Reconsider no spellbot policy... what is the intent here? As it is, people running Eragora will bring spellbots in, or self-spell and regen before a run. This is a pointless timesink hassle which simply wastes players' time and reduces time spent playing the game, which is exactly why the spellbot policy was created. In my opinion a spellbot restriction rather than ban would be appropriate: allow buffs but no heals. It will still be rare that players will leave their bots in Eragora because they are less accessible to the playerbase as a whole, and regardless of the ban people who own spellbots will walk them in to trade spells as is custom.

-Allow easy departure. RL calls, this is a fact of life, and Eragora unfairly punishes those who have sudden RL commitments (work, kids, dogs, phone, whatever). I appreciate the restrictions on entry, but leaving should still be as simple and quick as portaling Sanctum. As it is we regularly have people trapped in Eragora begging for help on herochat... the current implementation is a great way to ensure people never go back.

-Better transparency and/or control of Auto-CR. Right now players have no idea whether their corpse will move or not on death, which complicates the threat of death significantly. It also messes up runs when splats die and their corpse is moved, as it separates the group, often in areas where the splat cannot teleport back (and the group doesn't know how to access the corpse room, if they even can). Basically, CRs are a well-understood procedure which are all sorts of messed up in Eragora in a way which players can't easily predict or understand. While implementing a toggle is probably out of the question, as-is this punishes exploration. At the very least areas which offer Auto CR should be flagged in some way, though IMHO it should be eliminated entirely (part of the whole point pf Eragora design is risk, right?) and possibly replaced with a mobprog in Sanctum which simulates eulogy for Eragora deaths, or eulogy should be enabled to work on all Eragora corpses.
Author RE: Thoughts/Feedback on Eragora
WinterRose
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Location: Explorer's Respite, Eragora
Joined: 14.02.11
Posted on Sep 04 2011 09:07
If I were to venture an (uneducated) guess, I would say that Eragora represents the strife (perhaps too hard a word) among the retro/convenience factions of our IMM pool. Where one side would like to see a return to ye good olden days of no spellbots and no safety net of "c tele sanc", where the players had to invest significant effort to do the truly heroic deeds, others might still prefer the current status which offers greater convenience and less hassle, which might be a crucial factor in catering to the limited pool of new players. Thus we have Eragora as an alternative for those that indeed want to run botless and sanctum-free.

I cannot presume to know the thoughts of our IMMs or which of the two approaches is better, but I do want to comment of some of Takayuchi's ideas.

1) Group Sphynx Passage - this is an excellent idea. If the mobprogs could be tweaked so that each player would see his own "story", and then they could be spat out together, this would greatly reduce the likelihood of deaths, and timesink that the judgement is. I fully support this idea.

2)Spellbots - I cannot comment here. Lord or hero alts are spelling groups already but its stranding those alts on Eragora, making returning inconvenient. Full spellbots would indeed be rare, at least with the current number of Eragonans. However I somehow feel this would be against the basic premise of the continent. The question of Lords on Eragora should also be addressed, separate from this point.

3) Easy departure - While I strongly object to sanctum escape, as it is a mechanism that has no place in Eragora, easier departure would indeed be a benefit to all, as the sad fact is that none of the groupies I bring, with the exceptions of fellow explorers, have any idea how to return. Allowing teleport/portal TO Kharon, while still requiring Sphynx Ablution when coming in, would perhaps be the best way to achieve this.

4) AutoCR - I strongy object to any changes here, and in fact wonder why more Midgaardian areas do not have this mechanism as well as local clouds. The fact is that sometimes story trumps convenience. Sun God Altar - the necromancers steal your corpse as anyone would expect them to. Halfling Tunnels - you are thrown in a prison, half-dead! Quarries and Mines - you are thrown in a bit of dead slave bones, etc. These occurrences not only make sense but are in my humble opinion a welcome thing. They breathe life and sense into the areas.

The convenience of not messing up groups on splat death is beside the point here, Eragora is not intended to be a sub101 or splat zone. I will also disagree that Eragora should in any way pose a risk, at least not above and beyond the Midgaardian areas. In my eyes Eragora is a return to exploration, an escape from the monotony of The Standard Runs, the land of the questing, and should be treated as such.

Thank you for listening.
Author RE: Thoughts/Feedback on Eragora
Takayuchi
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Posts: 25
Joined: 21.03.11
Posted on Sep 04 2011 10:18
I don't understand how we can on the one hand desire a return to "ye good olden days of no spellbots and no safety net of "c tele sanc"" and on the other hand implement automatic CRs. These two ideas seem totally contradictory to me. Either it's risky or it's not, pick one. It seems to me that soloers are getting the best of both worlds here: "exploration" and extra exp, with no fear of gear loss. Unless the implementation is just meant to be annoying rather than challenging, in which case, well done.
Edited by Takayuchi on Sep 04 2011 10:19
Author RE: Thoughts/Feedback on Eragora
Zahri
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Posts: 65
Joined: 22.11.06
Posted on Sep 04 2011 12:08
Some comments and questions:

1) Last week I revised the ferry portion of the mobprog (which transfers the entire group) to be about 40-45 seconds, from 2 1/2 minutes.

2) It is intended that you are ablutted upon entering. If you are in a group, I mostly cannot see the issue here: send the tank first, and wait for backup. I am willing to make the room LESS dangerous, but I will not fully take the danger away.

I will revise the Sphynx entrance if/when group-ablution were possible (and then, probably make the room on the other side a bit harder, since, you have your whole group!). But right now, coding time is being used elsewhere.

3) The no-teleport back and forth from the continent is intended and will never change. Else it's just an extension of Midgaardia.

4) I made the no-spell bots rule because I wanted some sort of community. I also wanted to make it harder on bzks and to a lesser extent brutes, who tend "to get all of the groups" and do not group casters at all on Midgaardia.

5) Are you guys in favor of making the continent Hero only? No Lords? I would move in this direction, but I fear the other half of the playerbase will cry foul *wink*

6) The xp bonus and deathloss reducation bonus were intended to get people over to visit the continent, yes.

7) As WinterRose pointed out, in some cases auto-CR helps serve part of the story of the area itself. Not sure why the transparency of auto-cr is a question -- the wiki alone tells you which areas will do it and which will not, and it never changes. After the first death, you know exactly where your corpse is. I understand the risk of separating splats, but what level are the splats?

8) Healing Springs is a great area. Sadly due to the placement of the area (far north), it was not possible at the time to make a proper connection. There's a very, very easy way to get to the area, but not many have taken the time to notice. Regardless, someone is working on making the proper river connection, though they were only assigned that project last week.

9) Why is 'quick leaving' a sticking point for Eragora? I don't understand why you have to leave the continent fully if you are in a rush, unless you are tiny and afraid of being stuck there alone, though Eragora was not coded with sub Hero 101 in mind. If you are in a non-cursed room, you simply need to recall reset and recall back to the walkways, which is a safe room. A lot of the areas also have safe rooms.

********

Some points, a bit of repetion from above:

1) Eragora is not intended for sub Hero 101.
2) Eragora is not intended for quick ferrying back and forth between Midgaardia and Eragora. I was hoping people would stick around for more than one run. The hope was to get some of the sanctum crowd over to Eragora in a slightly more permanent fashion, which would make groups easier to make on the fly. This has not happened yet.
3) Hypothetically, if I removed all of the auto-CR functions (so your corpse doesn't move), are you guys saying you would like it better? This would not work in all instances, for example, if it violates storyline.
4) I wanted a spellbot-less place, yes.
5) I can make Eragora Hero only. Would you like me to take it to a poll?
6) How else would you suggest I entice people to visit, without a flat xp bonus, and without just piling on ac and hr/dr onto gear, ruining what tier 1s you already have in Midgaardia?

I do want to make gear and insignias that confer different bonuses, but the reality the bonuses need to be smaller with the intention that people could stack them (i.e. +2-3% hp regen, not 5% hp regen). They would likely strip at Lord 1. But in and of themselves, such a small bonus would turn people off unless they get all of them.
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Author RE: Thoughts/Feedback on Eragora
Valth
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Posted on Sep 04 2011 15:12
Prohibiting lords won't do anything besides making people who want the convenience of kra spells to make a 101+ cleric. Moreover, since that cleric will have a lower mana pool, spelling up will take even longer, making runs take much longer than 30 minutes. And people who will cry for everyone to selfspell- A full set of t1 hero mana gear gives 905 mana. Your average brute will thus have 1k-1.2k mana, and that is not enough to spell themselves with the main 3 macros with the brute races that have penalties to spells, both in terms of costs and failure to cast.

On Eragora having its own community- why? Why do you want to split the playerbase into two? If everyone hypothetically moved over to Eragora, would you be happy? Midgaard has 20 times as many hero areas, should we just toss those all out the window? I don't understand why we should strive to make even more cliques than we have now. And yes, to anyone who doesn't think so, the MUD has cliqued A LOT, to the extent where several groups of players don't ever run with other people in hero, for whatever reason. I can only name about 5 people who lead public hero runs with any sort of regularity.

And in my opinion, if you need to add incentive to visit your area, your area has significant underlying problems. I visited Eragora when it first came out, and left quickly after. I believe several others also did so. Adding a temporary quest didn't do anything either, since Winterrose and the rest of the small Eragora group ended up getting everything, and not "Midgaardians." Adding rewards for going there is the wrong way to go, especially since those rewards are probably too weak to appeal to the large majority of the playerbase, who largely all have well enchanted gear.

The main issue at hand lies in the "fun vs realism." For me, and I am assuming a large portion of the playerbase based on how few dedicated Eragorans there are, Eragora is simply -not- fun. You can say we're spoiled by spellbots and healbots and too much information on the wiki and whatever, but the fact of the matter is that if you want to explore, you'll do it on your own, without caring about any of those niceties because they are only CONVENIENCES. Yes, spellbots are not necessary, even though a huge amount of heroes think that they need steel skeleton and barkskin as a hitter. You don't need to appeal to people who want to figure out all the little things about the area. You need to appeal to the people who are in the MUD not to explore, but to kill things to get cool items and feel powerful.

As a side note, I really dislike the fact that people think that clerics and casters don't get groups outside of bladedancer tanking. As it is now, a tanking caster gives a very significant bonus to diversity over a monk (It's probably at least 10%, no hard numbers). In terms of hitting, the vast majority of casters just "cast whenever" and wear mana/tank gear. This causes them to run out of mana far before spells end, and contribute NOTHING to the group. If you want to hit as a caster, follow these steps:

1) Unless you are a sor/wzd, you have 3rd attack and enhanced damage. Bring a set of hit gear with which you can switch to. Your average of EVIS** to MUTIL** (depending on your worship of shz or qxl) in hit gear will often result in killing the mobs in one round instead of two rounds. Sorry sor/wzd, but you two are the strongest solo classes in the game at hero anyways. The former has immolation + tainted genius, the latter has a huge mana advantage over the mage, and both have flash. Access to spellbots circumvents the fact that both lack several important buffs.

2) Cast only when the brutes will not kill the mobs anyways. If the mob is at pretty hurt and was last hit for "disemboweling viciousness," a disintegrate hitting DISMEM*** will probably not kill it, wasting mana, because the next round of combat will kill the mob anyways. Yes, you have to pay attention to the damage style! (viciousness, brutality, etc) It tells you the percentage of hp the mob has left! This is a concept that 90% of people either don't realize or refuse to act on.

3) Adding a cleric to a group of 4-5 brutes will not change per person exp significantly (My test added a prs to a group with 4 brutes and the exp per mob went down by 0.5 exp/mob. My overall run experience went up by 5-10% because I didn't have to waste time casting sanctuary on myself). And if you are said cleric, you should be paying attention and sanc/frenzing not only the tank, but any lowheroes who can't buff themselves, as well as those brutes with very low mana pools. You should also immediately remove poisons from your groupies, as well as keep an eye on everyone's hp. Sorry, if you want to sponge, play a brute.
Edited by Valth on Sep 04 2011 17:28
Author RE: Thoughts/Feedback on Eragora
WinterRose
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Posted on Sep 04 2011 19:05
Concerning Lords at Eragora, I concur with Valth that prohibiting them would perhaps be a bad move for the reasons he stated, but also for the fact that they die just as easily as others, and non-soloable quests will not be soloed with a lord anyway.

As to other talking points:

Temp quests are a great way to encourage people to learn new areas, period. Since the Outpost came up, I have seen (in my non-US online hours) at least 20 people (not alts) come to the area and try their luck. The quest itself lasted a week until (accidentally) the group I happened to be a part of found the way to the last pgem. The remaining quests here are permanent and offer lasting insignias.

Also I would not call 6 pgems total and over 2 million in gold (in those groups I was a part of - hardly a majority), as well as 18k runs, a "reward probably too weak to appeal to the large majority of the playerbase".


You don't need to appeal to people who want to figure out all the little things about the area. You need to appeal to the people who are in the MUD not to explore, but to kill things to get cool items and feel powerful.


I find this reasoning very odd. You're suggesting builders should carter to the part of the player-base that likes to grind endless grinds, so that they go grind other areas? Why? Aren't they perfectly happy with what they are doing anyway? It's the explorers and people who read room descriptions that will become bored if no new content is introduced.

The issue of splitting the community has came up often ever since Eragora was introduced. All that was asked of players was that if they wish to run Eragora often, to dedicate an alt to it, one that can possibly both solo and run effectively in groups. This is not a harsh demand, as such a character can obviously exit and enter Eragora at will. Furthermore, this is not even a requirement, since there is nothing wrong in having an Eragora bzk for example, that just never runs without groups, and has fodder gear in case of a catastrophe.

Somehow this got blown into "You're putting people onto Eragora and they will never run anything else again!". I have no idea where this came from. I like to run my caster on Eragora, and my hitter on Midgaard runs, as is the preference of many I have met. How I split my time between the two is my own affair, and If I'm collecting gear solo I'll do so without you anyway.

There is no such thing as splitting the playerbase.

A person will either run with you or he will not, and if he is not, weather he is on Eragora, Midgaard, idling in Sanctuary or sharpening swords at Ulrich's, is utterly irrelevant.

Now, Valth has also spoken of the cliques that have formed over time. I have seen them, as have many. Trying to add a cleric into a group will be easier for some than for others, depending on personal relationships and such, but how is this Eragora's problem? There is no such thing as an Eragora clique, at least not yet. And if it were, what's the difference between "a bunch of people doing Eragora runs", and "the same bunch of people doing some other midgaardian run you'd never join because it's not interesting to you"?

As it were, you will hardly de-cliquify the existing players, except by introducing new content that appeals to members of various groups/bsets. This can only serve to bring players, previous strangers, together, rather than to spread them apart.
Author RE: Thoughts/Feedback on Eragora
Ginta
Member

Posts: 6
Joined: 14.07.10
Posted on Sep 04 2011 19:12
Having people be in Eragora wouldn't split the playerbase in two, especially if people sat only one alt in Eragora or maybe two. Most of the active people in the game have multiple heroes and lords, and even duplicates of class. It wouldn't split the playerbase to move an alt over, it would just be another option.
Author RE: Thoughts/Feedback on Eragora
Takayuchi
Member

Posts: 25
Joined: 21.03.11
Posted on Sep 04 2011 19:55
Putting legitimate tier 1 items in Eragora, combined with a ban on lords entering the continent, would make it an attractive place to take hero groups. I mean, we could actually see heroes running gear and lottoing stuff... and casters getting groups...imagine that. There exists plenty of wiggle-room between current hero t1 and lord t2 for some new upgrades to be implemented (eg. 13-15dr weapons) That could be a cool development, if increased traffic to Eragora is desired.

I would add that Pulse has created a number of new statistics to provide for interesting different itemizations which could make Eragora an extremely attractive place. This, combined with a strict ban on Lords, would be a great move in my humblest of opinions.

eg.

Modifies extra attack chance by + 10% continuous
Modifies critical chance by + 5% continuous
Modifies spell power by 2% continuous
Modifies healing power by 3% continuous

If some of these affects could be applied to quaffs as temporary buffs, even... arcane scrolls which temporary enhance your spell damage... these would be some very intriguing and exotic items obtainable nowhere on Midgaard.
Edited by Takayuchi on Sep 04 2011 20:01
Author RE: Thoughts/Feedback on Eragora
Zahri
Member

Posts: 65
Joined: 22.11.06
Posted on Sep 05 2011 19:28
Some of the more interesting affects that I have used lately (parry, critical chance, etc) are no longer usable as they weren't intended for long-term use. This was why undead modifiers are now being phased out again. at the advice of Mal.

I am reluctant to increase hr/dr, ac, and mana stats too high, as that is artificial and devalues Midgaardia too much. I am trying to think of different things that can be done, especially regarding insignias, which can be controlled via decay methods.

I do think the best thing for people to try is to have Eragora specific alts. It is not my intention to move the entire playerbase over-- that would be silly. But devoting certain alts, especially when you have a dozen or more, to trying out Eragora is probably the way to go.

After the next upcoming reboot/crash, Rhuien Forest now has slightly less buff hunters and a more stable pp (though aggies can, and will, walk out.) But if you're lucky...

Regarding entering and exiting the continent... not decided yet on what to do, but you won't see the biggest change until group-ablution is possible, probably.

Thanks.
http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/avatar
Author RE: Thoughts/Feedback on Eragora
Takayuchi
Member

Posts: 25
Joined: 21.03.11
Posted on Sep 06 2011 04:13
Zahri wrote:I am reluctant to increase hr/dr, ac, and mana stats too high, as that is artificial and devalues Midgaardia too much. I am trying to think of different things that can be done, especially regarding insignias, which can be controlled via decay methods.



"Artificial"? Yeah, the entire game is artificial. But that just hurts.
Author RE: Thoughts/Feedback on Eragora
WinterRose
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User Avatar

Posts: 19
Location: Explorer's Respite, Eragora
Joined: 14.02.11
Posted on Sep 06 2011 10:16
Many areas exist on Midgaardia that have been build to cater a single item, be it a weapon or a piece of armor or something else.

Simply putting a -100 AC piece or 13/15 weapon on Eragora, even if it received the same treatment as the previous t1 on Midgaarida, would easily make a number of old areas utterly obsolete.

We were indeed careful to to put overpowering gear. The mana set that can be obtained is alost the same mana as the previous generation, jsut different buffs. AC gear is weaker, but different in other ways. Same for hit gear. As for the weapons, the regular weapons like 10/10 swords are harder to obtain than back home, though in greater quantities.

It is somewhat balanced. Balooning the Eragoran gear, even for a few points or percent over Midgaardian equivalents, would IMO cause too much issues with obsolete areas. Eragora should always be an alternative source of entertainment, gear, and xp runs, not an upgrade over Midgaardia.

Insignias however - these are alt specific rewards. This alt has done something great, he claims the insignia, and when you play another alt - you can choose a different one, according to your taste. (Several pick an insignia quests exist already on Eragora). I fully support this method of character optimization since it rewards a character for something he has done, unlike through gear where you reward a lowhero with something your LORD has done.

So, let's not ruin all the gear on Midgaardia by turning it all into t2-t3, hmm?
Author RE: Thoughts/Feedback on Eragora
Takayuchi
Member

Posts: 25
Joined: 21.03.11
Posted on Sep 06 2011 20:19
I don't understand the horror of replacing items which have been farmed for well over a decade. If we wake up tomorrow and there is a -30ac waist in Eragora which makes chained steel collar not t1, will we all weep because we have less of a reason to farm The Doom? No, I don't think so. Similarly the following items are uber-common, uber-old and surprisingly mediocre for t1:

a pair of steel bracers
Antharian signet ring
flaming pants
killing gloves (lowmort gear!)
robe of greatness
scorpion tattoo (lowmort again..)
ac wrists in general (there are what 5 of these with identical stats now?)
etc. etc.


Anyway, this is all sort of a moot point, since a bunch of new t1 just materialized in Explorer's Outpost. Some of which is very good indeed. Hopefully further additions can be spread out in Eragora in general so each area has one or two upgrades, lest we alll end up camping Outpost and ignoring the rest of the continent.
Edited by Takayuchi on Sep 06 2011 20:23
Author RE: Thoughts/Feedback on Eragora
Neyne
Member

Posts: 14
Joined: 28.01.07
Posted on Sep 06 2011 21:08
Power creep can DIAF as far as I'm concerned. Killing gloves are 5/5. Zgaunts are 7/7. Not exactly a lot of wiggle room there to make hero gear that isn't lordly in stats, and going the other direction and making T1-level omnigear is rather boring if too many slots have it. Besides, there's already a pair of hero level hit gloves and wrists.
Edited by Neyne on Sep 06 2011 21:11
Author RE: Thoughts/Feedback on Eragora
Ginta
Member

Posts: 6
Joined: 14.07.10
Posted on Sep 06 2011 23:24

Anyway, this is all sort of a moot point, since a bunch of new t1 just materialized in Explorer's Outpost. Some of which is very good indeed. Hopefully further additions can be spread out in Eragora in general so each area has one or two upgrades, lest we alll end up camping Outpost and ignoring the rest of the continent.



It didn't "just materialize". It's been there since the area was imped. People just assumed it wasn't worth their time because it was Eragora, while a minority of curious people got their hands on some nice stuff.
Author RE: Thoughts/Feedback on Eragora
Zahri
Member

Posts: 65
Joined: 22.11.06
Posted on Sep 06 2011 23:38
Please give me your opnions on the insignia quests in Eragora. The exploration outpost quest was just revised (thanks to the debacle for undead gear/insignias). These have many benefits over gear:

1) the alt who does the quest gets rewarded
2) the player can choose what type of reward they want, in some situations
3) the immortal can control when it decays -- there are some gear affects that I WOULD give out if I could prevent Lords from wearing them. But I can't, so I go with a backup plan instead.
4) I can modify them on the fly, including changing the reward if needed

etc

I do try to put some equivalent tier 1 gear into Eragora, or gear that is a mix of hr/dr and ac, but I'd rather create different options than make anything obsolete on Midgaardia.

and as a joke, but as the truth, I can't improve on the chained steel collar since that would invalidate the UD quest prize -- yes, that's another can of worms

P.S. If anyone reading this wrote an area for Eragora (especially those I haven't talked to in a while) and wants to make some changes/additions, let me know and we'll talk. Might be some delay on my end as RL work is a bit involved this week.
http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/avatar
Author RE: feedback
Helram
Member

Posts: 11
Location: Sol system
Joined: 24.01.07
Posted on Sep 07 2011 09:57
Spirited discussion, i don't have as much to add.

I've been in Eragora 3 times, once as broot and 2x casters (200/500+). I've died twice, once at the sphinx when a particularly strong guardian wandered in. I like the concept and challenge to reach and enter the area. I like the area, and if i had more time i'd be there often; great job adding challenge and diversity.

-H
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